Clucth: In Defense of Light Skinned Girls
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 at 10:01AM I know this probably won’t be a well-received article. The Varied Complexions of Black People is a guaranteed push-button topic, and too many writers have exploited the issue for hits. I hate that this will likely be taken in that context, but I assure you, that’s not what I’m up to.
Hear me out to the end.
When I caught wind of Eric Benét’s latest single “Redbone Girl,” my first thought was “oh, #$%^!” I wasn’t excited; I was loathing the term for the description of light-complexioned women and more so, the comments sections of multiple sites that would inevitably explode with vitriol and knife-twisting in never fully healed wounds. No one man should have so much power.
We’ve all experienced our fair share of unwanted and offensive commentary about our complexions. We say the comments don’t matter and that we’re so over it, but our reactions show otherwise. The emotional trauma, whether you’re 27 light, 1B dark, or a middle shade like 6 brown, all sticks like balls of track glue. What I want to suggest to you here is there is no outdoing each other in the pain category.
A dark girl encounters ignorance about her complexion? Yeah, so does a light girl. It would be nice if she could get a little empathy and understanding, too. Pain is just, well, painful, period. Who’s Hurt More isn’t part of the upcoming Olympics, and the re-telling of emotional battle scars shouldn’t be a competition.
Undoubtedly, racism, sexism, and alleged “preference” have created an unfair culture in which women with lighter complexions can be more valued in some circles. If you dig up stats on incarceration, employment, and even marriage or familial favoritism, they often tend to pan out in the favor of a “light bright.” That’s not at all OK, and I don’t have any Kumbaya answers for how to recondition 500 years of mind-@#$%ing to make it right.
Because in some situations those of a lighter complexion might get a one-up, that doesn’t discount the many ways in which it can be also be a pain. The hue that can make light-skinned women prized among some also can make them loathed among others. And the latter half of that dichotomy shouldn’t be dismissed because of the former.
The vitriol hurled at a darker woman for being melanin-infused doesn’t somehow trump that of a lighter-hued woman, also marginalized but in her case for not being considered black “enough.” (There’s a reason that after a trip to the beach, you’ll catch some light women extend their arms beside another light friend as a playful competition to see who’s finally darker. Sometimes you’ll catch one measuring her skin beside that of a brown friend to see if her complexion made it to brown status. It’s a joyous occasion to be “black enough.”) The words are different, but the intentional infliction of shame, the feeling of being outcast and set apart for something out of your control hurts just the same.
Read more: here
Reader Comments (13)
Thank you for this post. I'm a light-skinned woman who spent most of my life trying to fit in with darker woman the same race as I am. It's a shame that people judge you by your race let alone the shade of your skin.
Ms. Lucas,
I am really disappointed with this post! You had an opportunity to really address colorism and instead you breezed over the underlying results, which is that it leaves one group with privilege and another without. This is not to say that your pain isn't valid, I know it is. However, you have equated it to what dark-skin women go through and that is wrong and further divides us. You has just proven that you are NOT a part of the “struggle”.
I am brown and was bullied by several girls and particularly by an overweight light-skin girl for years. I was called conceited and told that I thought I was better than most. We fought several times. I was jumped. This girl even threaten to shoot me. My mother had to press charges on her. Being bullied and assaulted by her and a few others in my hood was about class and the perception of class. Being light-skin ACTUALLY puts you in a different class and we are beat over the head with that fact daily. Do you deserved to be attacked because of it? NO!! You should be protected. However, you need to not trivialize institutional and structural racism that disproportionately affect another group of people. Being bullied and “other’ed” is painful. I also personally know that it pales in comparison to what dark-skin women go through in the corporate world and with dating based on my skin shade. A much different type of hurt and should never be paralleled in the way that you did in this article.
I follow you on twitter and noticed that you have been very dismissive to opposing views on this matter. Was the point of your post to create dialogue or to be an exhibitionist? You yelled fire in a theater and now you just ignore it? Not cool.
See link on privilege: http://www.dulwichcentre.com.au/privilege.html
"You has just proven that you are NOT a part of the “struggle”."
Please. I'm black. I don't have a choice but to be. Don't pull that "you ain't Black enough" ish on me. Heard it all my life. It's mute. And annoying. And tired. But it does prove the point of my essay, no?
You were bullied, so was I. Called conceited and folks said I thought I was better? Yep. Me too. Fights? Yep again. Jumped? No, but I know several light women, including a cousin, who were beat up and their faces were the prime target. Mom get involved because of bullying? Yep. *Waves hand.*
Being bullied and hurt is painful? I agree. And I know because, yep, me too, again! You don't know that it pales in comparison if you have not lived it. Pain is Pain. Please stop trying to one-up people on it. I know what it feels like too, and if you insist that it's worse, then you need a doctor, not tell off on a writer because you don't like what she said.
I don't know what you've been told about perceptions of light skin, but there is no different class. Privilege? Yes, as I acknowledged in the story. But a whole different class? I assure you it's not.
I didn't trivialize anything. I specifically noted: "Undoubtedly, racism, sexism, and alleged “preference” have created an unfair culture in which women with lighter complexions can be more valued in some circles. If you dig up stats on incarceration, employment, and even marriage or familial favoritism, they often tend to pan out in the favor of a “light bright.” That’s not at all OK, and I don’t have any Kumbaya answers for how to recondition 500 years of mind-@#$%ing to make it right." << that part is literally posted above. you didn't have to follow the link.
I didn't write an apology to dark women for being light, which seems to be what folks wanted to read. And I'm not going to. And I should not even be expected to.
And Jesus, can you imagine how a story about a light skin privilege by a woman who is half the time called light was going to go over?!! "Dear Dark Skinned Woman: I'm sorry your life is so hard because people prefer my complexion better..." Um, no. I like my life, hon. I'm good on that one.
I write to tell my truth or at least that what I research. I don't write to make people feel better; but I also don't want them to feel like crap. And on this one, I wrote on eggshells so as not to turn a knife in any open wounds.
Dismissive is not the word. More like annoyed. After reading the comments in the Eric Benet story on Clutch from the week before, I found it utterly baffling that the perception of light women is that they live some carefree life all sustained by their skin tone, and further, that some women wanted to be heard on how hard life is for them, but were clueless, uninterested and flat out rejected other narratives of pain. How dare anyone expect someone to care about their problems while they ignore the problems of the people they want to care. That is childish and selfish.
I didn't yell anything. I said what a lot of people think and managed not to mean about it the way it has been in return. You want me to agree with you; I don't. It's clear from the piece. I said what I meant. What more was there for me to say?
Now that I've responded, you probably wish I didn't. Be careful what you ask for.
As always, thanks for reading.
B
Ms. Lucas,
Who said you were not "black enough"???
No one is asking for your to apologize for the hardships of darker-skin women. No one is asking you to solve the problems of colorism. No one thinks that you live a carefree life. That is not the definition of PRIVILEGE in the context of this social construct. What the opponents of your post are asking is that you not draw parallels between being bullied and being socially relegated to the bottom of human existence. No one is trying to one-up anyone. For example, poor people do not want to hear about rich people's money problems. That does not make rich folks problems any less problematic, but in the context of other poor people it does!
Your personal pain is one thing, but to come to the "DEFENSE" of an entire group there has to be an OFFENSE of another. You clearly pitted us against one another in your post. YOU did. No one wants you not to be light. We love that black women come in all shades. What we want is to be celebrated as well. That's it. Real simple. You walked on eggshells, but it wasn't enough to mask how you really feel about relations between dark-skin women and light-skin women.
We don't need to hear anymore glorification of Eurocentric attributes from the black community until there is more balance when it comes to standards of beauty. That is the frustration with Eric Benet's song and songs like it. But you didn't see that at all when you read those comments. You took it personal. So clearly you're okay with the lack of images and the loathing of dark skin?
Please note: being black, dark, poor, light, or acknowledging a few statistics about the perils of darker hued people, does make you a part of the "struggle".
Peace
"Who said you were not "black enough"??? "
ok. I'll bite. what did you expect me to read into "you're not part of the struggle." What else does that ish really mean?
"PRIVILEGE in the context of this social construct. What the opponents of your post are asking is that you not draw parallels between being bullied and being socially relegated to the bottom of human existence."
But there are parallels. And if you are so trapped in your own ish that you can't acknowledge them after they've been laid out, then I just don't know what to tell you. Rejection is rejection. Pain is pain. And perhaps if that of others was acknowledged, there might be an inclination to care just a bit more or do something about it.
"Your personal pain is one thing, but to come to the "DEFENSE" of an entire group there has to be an OFFENSE of another."
So clearly you didn't read the comments on the Eric Benet post on Clutch that inspired my piece? You should.
"poor people do not want to hear about rich people's money problems. That does not make rich folks problems any less problematic, but in the context of other poor people it does! "
and that is also whey poor people or anyone else who refuses to listen will always have the same problems. in what world do you get to tell someone, "I don't care about your problems, but you should listen to and act upon mine?" Puh-lease.
"You clearly pitted us against one another in your post"
I did no such thing. I built a bridge listing all that light and dark girls have in common-- similar pains and hurts. pain is pain. period. Acknowledged the worst cases of privilege, and the pains that come with it, understood when light girls are implied as not "real", but added that it stings. If you felt pitted against someone THAT IS ON YOU.
"What we want is to be celebrated as well."
Who said that you should not be? Please quote where that was said in the original post. In fact, I pointed out why calling Michelle Obama a "real" Black woman irks me but that I totally get the brown girl pride in it. Again, when did I say you should not be celebrated? And for clarity, Yes! Yes! Yes!!! I think all hues should be celebrated.
"it wasn't enough to mask how you really feel about relations between dark-skin women and light-skin women"
if you're offended by someone saying, "pain is pain" and "I feel pain too", then you're likely to be offended by anything.
"We don't need to hear anymore glorification of Eurocentric attributes from the black community until there is more balance when it comes to standards of beauty. That is the frustration with Eric Benet's song and songs like it. But you didn't see that at all when you read those comments. You took it personal. So clearly you're okay with the lack of images and the loathing of dark skin? "
huh? no, really. HUH? like the song is crap. I said as much. and if I liked it, then I would have said so. i didn't take anything personal. this, what you're writing now, addressed to me, THIS, where you come to my site and call me by name and leave a long comment, I take personal even as I realize that the vast majority of responses to what I write aren't about me but people in their feelings, which is what I think this is.
You sound like your feelings are hurt, and that's really unfortunate. I mean that sincerely. But that doesn't give you the ok to make wildly inaccurate and biased, baseless ridiculous assumptions to say that I am "okay with the lack of images and the loathing of dark skin." Like... I'm baffled. And if that's what you got from that piece, welll... Jesus, loves you. That's all I got. There's absolutely nothing in that story to back up your assertion. At all. If you're going to make ish up, then we just can't dialogue.
Oh, and that nonsense you want to repeat about "the struggle" and how I'm not apart? Boo, bye.
As always, thanks for reading Belle.
Wow to these comments. I'm not even going to bother...
@Belle
PLEASE PLEASE start blogging on your own blog again. The other blogs you contribute to are NOT as open to commentary as you are on this blog.
I posted ONE comment, which was along the lines of "Dark-Skinned black women need to work on their self-esteem" on CLUTCH and I got BLOCKED.
My comment was also deleted.
The editor over there is not open to criticism (unless that criticism is directed to certain groups...referring to the comments on the Eric Benet post). So, I'm done with that site. We miss you here. I still read from time-to-time, but it looks like your readers have abandoned the comment section.
@My2Cents - You said "Dark-Skinned black women need to work on their self-esteem." You basically just generalized all dark skin women as having low self-esteem and that's why you got blocked because you reinforced the sad stereotype that exists about dark skin women, which is counterproductive to any discussion about colorism, but in line with how Belle's article came off.
Dark skin women are not a privileged group in society but despite this, not all dark women hate themselves or are jealous of women who are lighter or singing woe as me tales for the complexions they were born with. And there are dark skin women who have gotten teased for being attractive just like some light skin women hate themselves.
We know that light skin people get ridiculed for their God-given hues just like brown girls do but the bottom line is light skin people are still privileged, so pain is not pain, it's not that simple and you're not going to convince a group of oppressed people otherwise and you surely know this as a writer. We're all oppressed as black people but the lighter you are, the better treatment you get...from everyone. It was naive to think that this article would open up rational discussion when it really just comes off as, "Light skin girls get ridiculed too, see? Get over it." Demetria, it's understandable that you are defensive of your work but it just didn't come off the way you intended--at least to the people who rationally don't agree--light and dark. I'm with "A Sad Belle Fan" on this one.
@Naisha:
it's in the first graph of the story that I said I knew the article wasn't going to be well-received. I don't write to make people feel better. That's not my job as a writer. I'll never be nasty just because it's not who I am, but if I have a truth or POV that I think has some merit, I will share.
The responses to that article were either "thank you" or something like, "this is the dumbest ish I've ever read." Because you didn't feel it, doesn't mean everyone didn't. Please don't trivialize my work that way. It went over in some circles, not so in others. Such is life.
There's nothing in my piece to suggest that dark skinned women have low self-esteem. Nothing. The point of the article is pain is pain.Some people agree, some don't. And there was no, "get over it." I stated my point clearly, have some empathy if you expect some in return. If you read something deeper into it, that's not on me.
If you don't think pain is pain, so be it. But if we can't even get to the point of mutual empathy, then this conversation goes nowhere.
As always, thanks for reading, Belle!
Serious inquiry, what are these special privileges light skin women have? Just curious, like seriously, until this article and the comments from it, I had never heard of such. I'm brown skin. I have family and friends of every shade of the spectrum. We all get the same treatment no matter where we go. Whether good or bad...it's all the same because the world sees us as black.
Based solely upon reading everyone's commentary, colorism and ideas around it lie solely upon whether or not one has an external locus of control versus an internal locus of control. Those with an external LOC will lock into the idea that others have the power to control how their life will be determined based upon their skin color and other aesthetics. Those with an internal LOC do not allow the outside to define them, not standards of beauty or skin color.
The solutions for colorism begin first with showing empathy that we are really all in this thing together. The answers of colorism lie in the problem. Color, what is it? What does it mean? How does it define me or not define me as an individual? How has color shaped my view of the world or how has the world shaped my view of color?
We can't find answers if the discourse stays at surface level (ie feelings & traumatic personal experiences).
Um, what do you guys qualify as light-skinned, cause I'm "high yella" and the author of this post imo is brown, nowhere near light....AT ALL.
So I don't get where the author is coming from with this article because she will never be classified as light.
@ Reese...I agree, she isn't light-skinned to me either. But I guess it is a matter of perception. Some Black folks might perceive her as "light" if they are a bit darker than she is...I'm not quite sure. I know a brown-skinned lady with bleached blonde hair who swears that she is light-skinned, but she really isn't. But some people see her that way so it is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't matter, though. Belle seems to have a real understanding of what it is like for those of a lighter hue and she is one of the few people who has been bold enough to speak on it without apologizing.
@ Belle...I like your style. I might follow your blog from here on out. I still visit Clutch sometimes, but only for articles that interest me. I find that many of the people who comment on that site have a somewhat divisive mentality when it comes to issues like this. They love to attack light-skinned and biracial/multiracial people over there. I have no problem with people being honest, but the personal attacks and insults are too much.
I happen to be very light-skinned, to the point where I can either "pass" for white or other races (note: it is involuntary. It depends on who is looking at me and what they see or assume). I have long hair down my back and a petite frame. My mother is the same...she was gorgeous in her youth and she is still quite the diva. She looks like a younger Elizabeth Taylor. She is biracial (her father was white, mother was black) and from Jamaica. Women have always had problems with her because not only is she light with long hair, but she is beautiful too. I'm saying this because somebody will be quick to say that light skin doesn't=beauty and I feel the need to clarify that she is both light-skinned AND pretty.
Anyway, I agree with you completely. I won't pretend to know what dark-skinned women deal with when it comes to colorism. I can only speak from my own experiences, but I still empathize with dark-skinned women because I know it hurts to be marginalized. I believe that dark-skinned sisters are beautiful and they should be recognized as such. I have no problem with admiring the beauty of a deep chocolate sista and I've been jealous of dark-skinned girls who are prettier than me.
But you're right...I wish that there would be a bit more empathy or sensitivity for those of us on the lighter end of the spectrum in return. Pain is pain, even if darker sistas don't feel that way. I can't help the way I look. I didn't ask to be mixed or light-skinned. This is just who I am. I shouldn't have to apologize for being me. I shouldn't be made to feel guilty or ashamed. And I shouldn't have to deal with others constantly projecting their insecurities onto me because they believe that I am more "privileged".
If this "privilege" entails being hit on by color-struck men, I don't consider that to be a privilege at all. I've had my fair share of problems in life like everybody else. I experience racism and sexism just like darker sisters do. So pray tell, what are these benefits I receive?
Let's see...being forced to downplay my beauty and positive attributes because some insecure person sees me as "privileged" by virtue of my light skin, so they want me to stay in my "place". I don't think I'm better than anybody else but I shouldn't have to feel ugly and hate myself so they can feel better about themselves.
Having people assume I'm stuck-up and conceited because of the stereotypes about light-skinned women, when in fact I'm just shy. When people take the time to know me, they will see that I'm down to earth.
Being approached by dark-skinned men who are only interested in me because of my color, not because of who I am as a person.
People wishing that I would be fat, disfigured or lose my hair because they claim that I think I'm "all that". Being called ugly and being told that my light skin was something to be ashamed of. I know that this happens to darker women as well, but I'm showing that it also happens to light-skinned women sometimes and it is hurtful.
Being threatened with violence or hostility because I have the nerve to be very light with long hair (my mother also experienced this). Having women shoot dirty looks at me if I look nice or if I comb my hair/put on lipstick. Apparently I'm supposed to look and feel terrible so others can be uplifted.
Being treated badly by some of my own relatives and being made to feel like I don't fit in because of the way I look. Seeing my dark-skinned cousin treated better because my family didn't want me to be conceited, so they decided to treat me like crap and make her feel good about herself.
Having people make things difficult for me because they believe that all light-skinned people have it easy in life (which is BS) and it makes them feel better to lord it over a light-skinned person for once, especially an attractive woman.
I remember a dark-skinned woman at a beauty salon laughing because my hair fell out...I had cancer and she was openly mocking me for not only being in poor health, but losing my hair as well. Because light-skinned women don't deserve sympathy, we're all uppity witches and we need to be brought down (sarcasm). She thought it was funny to see all my long pretty hair fall out in clumps.
Having to end a long-term relationship partly because his friends and family openly disapproved of him being with a woman much lighter than himself...his female relatives were the most vocal about it, despite the fact that I was always nice to them. Not to mention the constant harassment from other Black females in public when I was with him, especially if they were darker. I didn't want to deal with that anymore.
I could understand if I walked around like I'm better than others but I don't. My appearance might be more in line with the Eurocentric concept of beauty, but this doesn't mean that I see myself as superior to anyone. When I was growing up, I wanted to have the smooth dark chocolate complexion that other Black women had. I didn't like looking so white and so different...especially since most people made me feel so bad about it. Now I'm trying to love the skin I'm in after years of being told that the way I look is "wrong". I am far from privileged. I grew up poor and I might be light-bright with long hair, but my beauty was rarely acknowledged for a very long time.
So thanks, Belle, for seeing things from the other side and acknowledging that the grass isn't always greener. I understand that dark-skinned people have been oppressed and they have their troubles but that doesn't cancel out what light-skinned people (specifically women) deal with because people erroneously believe that we all benefit from "privilege". I appreciate what you said 100%. And I also agree with Crystal and Jane...as Black folks, we are discriminated against as it is. Why must we continue to promote this division against one another? Beauty comes in all shades and it has nothing to do with skin color.
I'm not denying that some Black people are color-struck and they will be quick to belittle a dark-skinned woman, while uplifting a light-skinned one. And I know that there are other ways in which those of a darker hue are devalued...there is no denying that either. But for some people to claim that light-skinned/mixed people are not "black enough" and to say that we are universally privileged and aren't part of the struggle faced by many people of color...say what?! That is a fallacy. My skin is as light as some white people and I STILL deal with racism. So I wish somebody would explain to me how that is a privilege, to be too black for some and not black enough for others.
BTW, on this subject...I saw a friend the other day that I hadn't seen in years. She is very dark-skinned, the complete opposite of me. We were simply talking and catching up on our lives. Anyway, she brought up the whole skin color issue and although I sighed inwardly, I listened patiently to what she had to say.
She shared that at her former university in Atlanta, there was this one light-skinned female who made her life miserable. They were once friends but there was some type of dispute between them and things were never the same after that. She told me that somebody told her that this girl said about her: "I'm not sure why all the cute guys are interested in her...she's so dark and she isn't even all that pretty!"
I could tell that my friend was hurt by the comment and I don't blame her for feeling that way, because that is a fairly common insult directed at darker women. It was a sh*tty comment, implying that dark skin is ugly and that dark-skinned girls shouldn't be liked by people. She is a very pretty girl and it sounds like the other woman was just jealous of the attention she was receiving from men. There are some light-skinned women who try to put darker women down and that is unfortunate. I tried to be emotionally supportive although I wondered why she was telling me all of this. Sometimes I think some dark-skinned women feel like they can vent their insecurities at me and that is what I was trying to say in my original post.
I understand that for some dark-skinned women, it hurts to encounter the type of ignorance that my friend told me about. It hurts to be told that one is "pretty for a dark-skinned girl". I don't agree with that nonsense. But at the same time, I believe that it comes down to self-esteem. I'm as light as they come, and very few people told me I was pretty when I was growing up. My friend told me that she often doesn't feel like she is pretty either (although most people see her as beautiful). I'm not sure whether she truly feels that way or if she was simply looking for validation from me. I find it difficult to believe that she doesn't see how beautiful she is. She is a few years younger than me and I remember when we were teenagers, that I envied her curvy figure and gorgeous smile. I'm sure that her family tells her she is a pretty woman very often.
I just thought I would mention my conversation with her. I tried to see it from her perspective and how painful it must be, but I also feel like some darker women blame me (and women who look like me) for all of their woes in life. It comes down to competition for male attention most of the time. I won't deny that a lot of Black men seem to prefer girls of a lighter complexion, but not all of them do. I've been overlooked by some guys who preferred darker women...I didn't lose sleep over them. I have been out minding my business many times and I will, more often than not, receive the side-eye or evil glares or mean comments from darker women, most of whom I don't even know. And wouldn't you know it, people will rarely admit to behaving badly...they will often insist that light-skinned women are always at fault, we must have a bad attitude to deserve such treatment.
I'm married and my husband is Caucasian, so obviously I'm not looking to "steal" anyone's man. Being very light-skinned with long hair is enough to trigger the insecurities of some people, I've noticed. They don't even have to know you in some cases. They simply see the light skin or the long pretty hair and it brings out the worst in them. There was a time when I stopped wearing makeup, gained weight, stopped fixing my hair and wearing nice clothes because I wanted to be seen for who I was, not what I looked like. I'm not calling myself beautiful but I know that my skin catches attention because it is extremely light. I know that some people will be drawn to me because of this. And I'm sure that if I dyed my hair honey-blonde, that would also attract some attention. But at the end of the day, I am still just a person with insecurities of my own. I don't enjoy walking into a room and having people treat me differently because of my appearance. I ignore Black men who objectify me or call me "redbone". And it is VERY uncomfortable to be around Black women who make an issue of my color without saying much...just the way they look at me says it all. Or the folks who go out of their way to make little snide remarks either to my face or behind my back. And dear Lord, the stares...I really hate being stared at because I'm shy.
Sometimes it is jealousy and other times I think it's about low self-esteem with some people. They were never taught to love themselves for who they are and it shows in how they treat others. I wish that as Black people, as members of the human race, we could love and accept one another unconditionally no matter how much melanin we have (or lack thereof).
On that note, Belle...writing this article was a VERY bold move on your part. By this time, we are all accustomed to hearing dark-skinned women talk about their experiences with colorism but it is rare when a light or even medium sista shares her side of things.
Don't misunderstand, I definitely do care about the feelings of darker women. But like you, I am sick of the constant victimhood and the blaming and being made to feel like my skin color is something evil just because they aren't receiving the kind of attention they want. Now some people might be offended by that statement and equate it with the white privilege that Caucasians have...I don't care if they do. I know I don't see it that way, because I have also experienced racism from white people and other non-blacks.
It is one thing for people to share their experiences with colorism. But too often, it is the same old narrative about how we evil light-skinned b*tches are holding them down and thinking we're all that. It is very one-sided in most cases. Then they complain that we need to simply shut up, sit down and listen to what they have to say. OK...but how will that improve the situation? There are issues on both sides. Some light-skinned women can be cruel, but let's not pretend that all dark-skinned women are saints. They justify treating light-skinned women like crap either because of their own pain or, dare I say it, jealousy.
I believe people had a knee-jerk reaction to your article because they felt it was somewhat inflammatory but deep down, they also knew that you had some valid points.