Fatherless Men
Thursday, September 10, 2009 at 8:32AM I follow a bunch of interesting thinkers on Twitter. Over the weekend, Brandon St. Randy linked to an... uh, interesting story over on Muslim Bushido, "Let's Get Serious About Vetting Men, Part 1: Do You Really Want A Fatherless Man To Be The Father Of YOUR Children?"
Yeah. It’s what you think.
This was my first time visiting Kadijah’s site, so I’m not sure what her overall outlook about matters is (ie, is she sane vs. insane.) She seems to be a fired-up feminist, and very woman-biased.
Anyway, these are some of her thoughts:
Let's talk about something that I hear very few African-American women mention when they discuss the husband potential of various men: whether or not these men grew up with a father or are fatherless.
I find this quite strange, because the composition of a date's family of origin is one of the first few questions that "old-school" African-American parents want answers to ("Who are his/her people?") This is also one of the first few questions that many middle-class African-American parents will have about the people their children date. Parents from many other ethnic groups (such as African; Asian, including South Asian; and Middle Eastern) typically go even further with these inquiries. Parents from these groups tend to strongly discourage their children from dating people from broken or dysfunctional homes. They do this because they understand that their child isn't just marrying an individual, but is actually marrying and mating into another family's background.
Modern Western culture likes to characterize screening potential mates based upon their family of origin as intrusive and cruel, but it's actually quite kind in the long run by sparing people unnecessary problems.
The harsh reality is that most people do what they saw their parent(s) do. The example set by their parent(s) is the "default setting" for most people. Good or bad.
She sets forth giving multiple examples of what men without fathers don’t experience. For example, never seeing first-hand what a live-in, full-time husband and father does, or seeing what a healthy, day-to-day relationship between a married couple looks like from inside the home, or never seeing a husband showing daily respect and consideration for his wife.
I get it.
For a long time, I had a rule about only dating men that came from two-parent homes. My logic based on the men I dated was there’s often obvious difference in the way they operate. For instance, the guy from a two-parent home often doesn’t think that every argument means the whole relationship is doomed and understands that even in the best of times that people will staunchly disagree. There was also the reality of masculinity that men from two parent homes, and specifically those with fathers, often understand differently. They don’t try to be men, they just are. They don’t have a Tony Montana, Tony Soprano, Tony Yayo view of how men behave. And when it comes to relationships, they don’t think The Cosby Show, a fictional sitcom, is how a marriage operates.
I gave up my theory for a number of reasons. 1) Coming from a screwed up household with backward thought isn’t exclusive to single parent homes, nor is it a given because a guy was raised (usually) by his mom. I’ve met a couple men with married, but rolling stone fathers who think non-committal relationships with multiple “baby mamas” and outside kids are acceptable. I’ve met some suburban Thug Life wannabe bangers from two-parent homes, and some straight up misogynists from dual parent houses too. 2) Having a father around doesn’t mean much if your dad “ain’t sh*t”; or 3) is so busy leading that he forgets to teach his son how to be a leader and not just follow everyone the way he does his daddy. 4) I met a great dude that didn’t have a dad around for most of his life who turned out nothing like Jody in Baby Boy.
There was Michael whose parents went their separate ways when he was a kid. He had an older brother who taught him what he knew of manhood, and his grandfather stepped in to give some man-teaching as well. His grandfather passed away in his teens but apparently Mike already got the protecting, providing part down pat. In his early thirties, we were at a parade and a fight broke out, likely to be followed by shots. He shoved me to the ground and shielded me—and an old woman nearby— from harm. When I asked him why later, he was baffled. His final answer: “uh… because that’s what men do.” When it came to finances, anytime I didn’t have it, he did. And when it came to the relationship, he was the one with the healthier ideas about what a relationship was and wasn't. (That was my heart right there.)
I figured out through him that the difference between guys who were raised by single moms and turned out with no real concept of manhood or its responsibilities, and those who did, was a male role model. I happily adjusted my dating "rule" to read: I won’t date any guy—absentee father or not— who didn’t have a male role model or idolizes a shitty one. (You can usually tell the difference by Date 2.)
So because of him I decided to take most guys on a case-by-case basis, which eventually led to another rule: I don't date men whose parents were never married, whether his father was involved or not. The ones I’ve dated often have a.... uh, unique outlook about family that doesn’t jive with my two-parent household background. I’ve listened to one too many children of unmarried men rationalize the actual benefits of having a “baby mama” because they're ready for kids. I was even called a potential “baby mama” by a dead-serious suitor who thought I would be flattered. Frankly, I was appalled. And it’s a large part of the reason I stopped dating him.
Um, sorry, I think “baby mama” should be a “surprise," if it has to happen (which it doesn't.Hello? Condoms? Morning After Pill if it breaks) , and not a planned event. You can plan to raise a kid with someone but don’t like/love them enough to put a ring on it? Plan a vacation or get a puppy to take up your free time.
Rant over.
So what say you? Is a man from a “broken” home a no-go? Is it even a factor when considering your seriously dating/hubby potential?
Discuss.
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Reader Comments (52)
Your amended rule makes perfect sense. I grew up in a two-parent home but wasn't able to witness a healthy marital union until I started my own. My parents were loving toward their children and did their best to get along but their differences were too varied and large in number for even us kids to overlook - they shouldn't have stayed together for as long as they did. My brother feels lost on how to behave in a committed union and even struggles with how to be an involved father (as my dad left the nurturing and everyday care to my mom). So you're absolutely right, it's safe to say that you can only make accurate judgments on his potential as a father and provider when he's had access to a stable role model (regardless of whether it's a father in the house or not).
How about we date people based on how they feel about relationships and not how we think they are going to feel about a relationship based on some wide sweeping categorization? The sins of the father shouldnt effect the children this much, its unfair.
@peyso
Because:
The harsh reality is that most people do what they saw their parent(s) do. The example set by their parent(s) is the "default setting" for most people. Good or bad.
there's a reason behaviors run in families-- single motherhood, abuse, absentee fathers. people OFTEN do what they know.
This is a tough one. You really never know what you're going to get with these men nowadays. My Ex came from a two parent household, and from what I saw his father was a great guy and he had plenty of male role models within his family like uncles and cousins. And he pretty much turned out to be a womanizer, liar and all around lost in life to say the least. I too had the rule of only dating guys with a father in the picture or a male role model, but after dating him and seeing many guys like him, I'm confused lol. I have nothing to go off anymore. I really think it comes down to what they decide to do with themselves and what they want out of life.
This is a great reminder of how guys also have "Daddy Issues"... don't let them fool you into think females are the only ones hmph!
My Ex came from a two parent household, and from what I saw his father was a great guy and he had plenty of male role models within his family like uncles and cousins. And he pretty much turned out to be a womanizer, liar and all around lost in life to say the least.
And that describes my daughter's father to a tee.
I don't have such rules. Why? "Cause I've dated across the board and at the end of the day it's the individual that matters. I know GREAT fathers who were raised by women. I know jackasses who came from GREAT two parent homes.
I take folk on a case by case basis. My own experience shows that not much of what folk say matters, matters. I deal with individuals and go from there.
The men I've dated, for the most part, have unfortunately come from single parent homes (I say unfortunately b/c what parent wants that as the ideal situation for their child). FORTUNATELY, these same men have had men in their lives who taught them the ropes of "being a man." Further, they openly admitted that growing up w/o a father (or mother for that matter) did affect them for awhile but it helped them to understand other things about relationships. They key to us getting along was the fact that they could admit that and see how they could use it to bring them to a positive point in their lives. So YES, I will date a man who didn't grow up with a father in his life provided that that issues that come/came with it are at least trying to be worked on and doesn't negative affect what he and I have going on. If they do, I think I would acknowledge that there's a problem, try to help look toward a solution, see if anything changes, and then act accordingly.
My parents were married for 22 years and my memory from when I was about age 4 shows me thinking that they should not have been together even back then. Though my father was there everyday, my mother was basically a single parent. Neither myself nor my brother grew up saying or thinking, "...a man should do this b/c that's the way daddy did it and that's that." NEVER. Unfortunately, I think my brother's laziness and sometimes irresponsibility is what he gets from my dad. Luckily, he's slowly working out of that (he's 23 now with a 1 yr old) and I think he'll be in a good place in a couple of years. His dating choices are BLAH but that's because, I think, he's not in a place to step up and be a FULL adult and a woman his age who is about her business won't deal with his shit. LOL!
Okay, I'm rambling...my bad. But the last thing I wanted to add was: back in the day, a lot of the "old school" African-Americans asked "who your people were" b/c they wanted to know if you were in the same class as they were in...or if your family had "the killer" in it. LOL! By "the killer" I mean that your fam really had a killer or they were absolutely crazy. LOL!
"I take folk on a case by case basis. My own experience shows that not much of what folk say matters, matters. I deal with individuals and go from there."
SBW really seems to know the ropes lol. Human beings are way too complicated for the generalizations and one size fits all analysis that people on most blogs come up with. Especially in the diverse and complex society that is the United States. I know guys that grew up without fathers and would love to end the "cycle" because they don't want their kids to go through what they went through. I know guys who's parents are still together and set a great example for them, yet these guys feel that there's no way they could live with a woman forever and "get punked and nagged" by a woman constantly, and that a child doesn't actually NEED a father in the house everyday.
Bottom line you never know what you're gonna get. Communication (especially about intentions and outlooks on marriage and relationships) is key in this new day and age.
Usually I'm on the side of the old school, but in this case it doesn't tell you very much about the individual although I fully understand the logic. It's a method that can and will work sometimes, but don't rely on it....I think everyone should read SBW's post on this. It happens to a lot of women and explains a looooot more single mom's situations than you would think. Guys/people aren't as predictable as we'd like them to be...
Two things, I guess. One, I think some people just have a very strong moral compass that will override their immediate surroundings. Even with no concrete examples, that person can and will do the right thing. Two, I think I'd pose that question to men about women as well. My parents got married after I was born, had a HORRIBLE marriage (set an awful example) and when they divorced, I lived with my father. He raised me by himself from 13 until I left for college. There were a couple long lasting marriages in my family (that I saw), but they weren't good marriages, so I really didn't grow up with any concrete, real-life examples of what a healthy marriage/relationship looks like. At the end of the day, I knew I didn't want to "play games" with people or be disrespected or be angry all the time. I chose differently and I think the same can be said for some men. I've dated guys from various household backgrounds (the hubby's dad passed away when he was very small, but he had an active grandfather) and like you said Belle, I found that single parent didn't mean asshole and two parents didn't mean Prince Charming. It really comes down to that individual and what he consciously and subconsciously seeks in life.
@Justme
we should go on a date..and since I asked..I'll pay...lol:-)
I agree that this should be a factor in evaluating a future partner. When I was young the first thing my mom and dad wanted was the 411 on any boy I was dating's parents/home situation. I was less discerning at the time and thought this bothersome at the time, so I'd evade the issue as long as I could. As I got older, I realized it was something that I needed to think about--as you said, most people repeat the same behaviors as their parents (or other prominent role models) good or bad.
I have always took each man on a case by case basis. As I would hope that any man I dated reciprocated as my family wasn't perfect either. If I were considering being serious with a man, I definitely wanted to know what his relationship was with his father (or lack thereof) was. Actually BOTH parents, not just his father. I've dated momma's boys who were so close to their mother that it made me think twice if I wanted to be the 3rd wheel in THEIR relationship to dudes that treated their mom with disrepect (indeed b/c they saw other men treat her that way throughout their life!). The latter was never around long once I found that out, but I digress...
I've heard many a man (acquaintances mostly) who grew up without a present father or positive male role model wax poetic about how they dont plan to marry and/or the benefits to having a "baby mamma" vs. a wife and of course how the institution of marriage is a farce. GTFOH!
I married a man who grew up with both his parents. Are they/their relationship perfect for the last 4+ decades, probably not. But when I look at my FIL, I can see why/how my husband became the (great) man he is today.
I have often wondered if dating a guy who doesn't have a father around is the best thing to do, but I come from a two-parent home, and it's slightly dysfunctional, too. I dated a guy who had a great relationship with his father and it was so refreshing to hear him talk about it.
Honestly, it's unfair to myself, as well as to those "fatherless" men to ex them out of the equation. I think you should make that judgement on an individual basis. The cylce (or generational curse) is not repeated all of the time. A guy may leave his family just his father did because he never had a blueprint of a real father, while another will use that as fuel to become an even better father to his children.
Let's flip the coin: Should men pass up women who were not raised by their mothers or fathers? There are similar arguments about women who don't have a father figure. If that's the case, we'd never date anyone, I guess.
I think the answer to the issue is find out about these issues early on in a relationship. Don't get pregnant and then find out that husband/bf can't cope with fatherhood or a relationship. I used to have this rule where if I didn't hear a guy (or anyone) speak about his/her father, I wouldn't ask. I'd wait for him to tell me because I never knew what answer or reaction I'd get if I were to ask, "Sooo...where's your daddy?" I'm older and I know the older we get, the more time we have for feelings to fester. Talking about it will make it easier for everyone in the longrun.
"Let's flip the coin: Should men pass up women who were not raised by their mothers or fathers? There are similar arguments about women who don't have a father figure. If that's the case, we'd never date anyone, I guess."
I know MANY men who won't date a woman without a father because they find them "too independent and combative." It cuts both ways. But since we're primarily a female population I just kept the conversation on fathers.
The same blogger addresses the woman equation in part 2 of her series if you wanna check it out:
http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2009/09/lets-get-serious-about-vetting-men-part_06.html
boys and girl need their dads for equal and diff reasons.......
"I think the answer to the issue is find out about these issues early on in a relationship."
Well said! I couldnt agree more.
yeah, speaking as a fatherless male it all depends on your upbringing. Like you said there could be mother's that can't/don't instill the idea of manhood in their sons and then there are those that know what they expect from a man and teach that to their child. Then on the flipside there can be someone from a two-parent home that lives in hell. I.e. abusive, not there emotionally, workaholic, or the Heathcliff Huxtable. Everyone is an individual with different familial backgrounds and experiences, there's no way to lump all fatherless boys/men in one box and all those with both parents in another. While there's some validity in arguments about certain individuals lacking an clear idea of what marriage means, everyone should be judged by the mistakes of others.
For every son that mimics their father's bad behavior, there's those that do everything in their power to be nothing like the man who provided half their genes.
My parents divorced when i was 7, personally i think it should have been from day one. My dad well lets put it plain, he was a whore, my mom way too conservative. Plus he used to hit.
My dad remained in our lives, so i did have a daddy, but my daddy was a whore. I grew up not trusting men , or women actually as i saw how he moved through friends.
In the end i married a man whose parents wernt married but he was raised by his dad. He was a wonderful boyfriend isnow is a wonderful father, but still in a growing process of being a good husband. At least he is growing.
I do know that your past affects you, it either hols you down like handcuffs, or it motivates you to jump high.
Atthe age of 31, i stills truggle with both
Neither I nor my husband come from 2-parent homes. My husband should have been another statistic, as his father's brothers had him with them constantly around drugs, women, violent criminals, he has witnessed violent crimes, etc. But he isn't. He always mentions how he wants to be the anti-XXXXX (father's name). I do find it interesting watching the conscious effort he makes to avoid certain things. I feel really uneasy about having a "rule" about dating men from 2-parent homes. I understand behavior often begets like behavior, but it just does not sit right with me.
Girls without fathers are susceptible to the same pitfalls. Who teaches them how to deal with men? I was raised by a single mother and she taught us essentially that we didn’t need a man. On the surface she is right I don’t NEED a man. But I have no example of how to have a productive relationship if I want one. Furthermore, I never learned how to be someone’s partner. Luckily I’ve realized this and am trying to surround myself with more positive images and pray that God shows me. At 24 that is all I can really rely on. I wouldn’t want my upbringing to count against me in the end it just isn’t fair for men or women.
On the other hand, I’ve seen men who have had father/ male figures who are horrible fathers and partners. The more positive images of fathers I have seen are those without father/male figures. I don’t know, I still think it’s a very grey area.
This post made me realize that every guy I've been at least semi-serious about has come from a two-parent household. Even in high school. This wasn't done on purpose at all, but I imagine that I gravitated toward the familiar. (My parents have been married for over 30 years.)
The dynamics in each one was very different though, and I could clearly see behaviors that they picked up from their parents' relationship. Some of those behavious led to our demise - struggles to communicate, insecurity, too much pride, abandonment, etc. (I had my issues too, no doubt.) Every situation is different no matter the household, and paying attention to the details EARLY is the key. My only "rule" is that I must like/respect/get-along with his family. (I will not willfully marry into mess.)
But even now, I would say that every single one of them were good guys and have strong potential to be great husbands. Fundamentally, they were all pretty solid and I would attribute at least some of that to having real life daily examples (good/bad, what to do/what not to do) of husband/wife interactions.
"They don’t have a Tony Montana, Tony Soprano, Tony Yayo view of how men behave."
LOVE IT! I've never dated a guy without a father, so I wouldn't know.
@ SBW- Let's do it, I'm down ;) lol
I think that the quality of the primary male role model in man's life is what counts (and vice-versa for women). It is true that just because there are two parents around doesn't mean that the house is full of positive models. Essentially, a man (or woman) needs to learn how to be a man or woman from a positive mother or father, regardless of whether they live under the same roof.
@ SBW- Let's do it, I'm down ;) lol
Looks like I got me a date...,lol
I think that the quality of the primary male role model in man's life is what counts (and vice-versa for women). It is true that just because there are two parents around doesn't mean that the house is full of positive models. Essentially, a man (or woman) needs to learn how to be a man or woman from a positive mother or father, regardless of whether they live under the same roof.
That about sums t up
Hi. Was directed here by Assertive Wit. It's been a while since I've visited.
"I grew up in a two-parent home but wasn't able to witness a healthy marital union until I started my own. " -Brittni
I loved that line and wholeheartedly agree. What makes a person a true candidate of a healthy relationship should not rest solely on the basis of whether of not they had a father in their lives. Like Brittni, my brother and I grew up with both our parents in the household...yet maybe the worst environment domestically I've known from many of our immediate peers. We have no idea why our parents are still together either but the detriment that their relationship is has definitely caused rifts that my brother and I struggle with personally. It's safe to say that we just MAY have been better off without the 2-parent household and definitely would have been more drama free, as the other influences in our lives outside our parents were and are large in numbers (other family members, etc)
I'm slightly besides the point. The point is....though 2-parent households are VERY important, each situation is most certainly not one in the same. In my relationship history, the men I've fallen in love with have all been without a parent in their household (be it their mom or dad), yet I've had struggles with the men that came from the household that had the "complete set". In this case, it is definitely narrow-minded to be so judgmental in a person and auto-write them off on the BASIS that they did not have a father or mother in their household to help "shape them". Why dont we make like MLKJr and judge folk off the content of their character and solely on the parentals in their lives, eh?
Major influences should not be limited to the parents.
@Belle... what happens when you date a guy from a two family household and he turns out to be an arse? Not because his father sucked but because he has his own fallible issues like @brittini? How is he categorized in your book?
As I was trying to name married, celeb black men from single- parent homes, all I got was Will Smith, Shaq and Snoop. The rest just have kids no marriage. And the ones married did have two parents growing up. A coincidence? Eh? Maybe I didn't filter enough?
Over all I ditto @SBW and @JustMe....You gotta take it case by case even though the 'norm' seems to say otherwise. I know men, personally, who had only a mother but are getting married and having kids(in that order). Some men actually want to give their kids better than they had- and will tell you so. If he is willing to try, why not work with him? No one is perfect. None of us knew how to operate in a relationship until we got into one; nevermind our family background. Yes, there are some fundamentals that come from a two parent household but not all of them do. My boss had a single mom with 3 other sons to raise. Now, he and all his brothers are married with kids and stable homes. It definitley helps to have a father in the home but it's not a death sentence for a man if his father was not there.
If you're keen on keeping rules, maybe you should go back to your previous rule re: male mentors or father-like figures. More options???? No one can teach a man to be a man but another man.